huit

You guys need to stop "sorry-ing" this and "sorry-ing" that - say it like a man if you have something to say. Who cares if it hurts a few chinamen's feelings, they're thick-skinned anyway (which, ironically, is part of the reason why they're so despised by other cultures).

Yep, it's always the Chinaman ruining it for the rest of us Asians

muhahahahaha

huit

14# huit thank you for reminding us;)anyway,we r still chinese...we needa admit this damn fact lol
alex00056 發表於 2012-1-3 12:24 AM

Why? Just because you are the same ethnicity as them? You don't even share the same culture and grew up in a completely different environment!

No American would call himself British just because they speak the same language. No Jew would call himself an Israeli just because he's Jewish. Most Taiwanese people would be VERY offended if you associate them with mainland China (as would Chinese Singaporeans/Malaysians). Same idea. China is China - different country, different culture, different dialect, you don't have to be associated with them if you don't want to. Just be who you believe you are.

I'm proud to be able to speak the language and understand the culture (always useful for your career), but doesn't mean I have to be one of them, in fact, I despise China and won't go there unless my work requires me to. Who cares what others think if you know who you are?

huit

@Popoeliz:

Err... explain this to me: What does being ethnically Chinese have to do with my aspirations and choosing what culture I'm most aligned with? I don't get to choose my heritage, but tell me what is so "pathetic" about choosing to dissociate myself (with disdain I might add) from a nation of people, a majority of whose values I do not share, just because they speak the same language? Contrary to what mainland China would like you to think, nobody is required to carry any baggage you're supposedly born with.

And, how does the way I think and act affect how YOU fit into a society. My opinion of China is formed from years of working there and with its people and also dealing with your average Chinaman that's part and parcel of living in Sydney. If you find that hard to accept, then it's a good sign you have a mind of your own, as do others (I would hope). So how it has anything to do with you or others fitting in is irrelevant, as for me, I can assure you it's a comfy fit. Has been for years.

huit

OK, try this one on:
When somebody asks you where you're from, do you instinctively say Hong Kong or China? And, if the person then says "oh, so you're from China", do you find yourself going at length to explain how it's a different jurisdiction with its own laws and culture. Keep the answer to yourself.

Hey it's not just me, on the current issue (#1139) of Next Magazine there's an article ("
我係香港人，吹咩?") on a recent research on identity - only 16.6% of Hongkies would call themselves "Chinese" - a 12-year low.
I'll wear the Hongkie badge proudly because that is part of what's actually shaped me, but I am not a Chinaman (yes that's what I said, a Chinaman), with next to zero influence from contemporary China, when I left HK, the Brits were running the show. So I don't see how being ethnically Chinese has anything to do with people who now inhabit China, and what they've become.

I don't like to have to repeat what I've said before but will paraphrase just to make it clear, it's perfectly fine to dissociate from a group of people with whom your values are not aligned - the exact same reason why you're not friends with people you don't like, let alone travelling to a place where there's a lot of them (yes I'm sure there's nice ones too, but spare me)


If I find a group of people repulsive, it makes not an iota of difference what language they speak or what culture they come from (I hate Lebs too by the way - try flaming me on that too). Conversely, I'm under no obligation to accept and defend that group of people just because I speak the same language as them or the place I came from is now under the same sovereignty as where those people hail from.

And what's more, I don't remember ever saying I'm "denying" my heritage - or that I'm ashamed of it. Helps if you don't put words in my mouth. And by the way, this group I don't like, they add NOTHING to my heritage, they are just people who happen to live in China today. Just as this group has nothing to do with with other ethnic Chinese people in the rest of the world. HENCE, my analogy before on Yanks vs Brits, Jews vs Israelis - do those people not celebrate their culture and heritage? BUT, at the same time, would they so readily claim each other as one of their own?

You know, the reaction from both of you is eerily similar to the emotional response the religious nutters had when debating with the late (and great) Christopher Hitchens, difference is of course they were vehemently defending their faith whereas you two are questioning my choice of who I associate with and how "pathetic" you think it is, as if I have transgressed some unwritten law about being ethnically Chinese. I won't ever deny my opinion is biased (as opinions often are), but I won't shove it down your throat either with what I believe. As for respect, to be honest, I'm not going to lose sleep over what some dude over the internet thinks about me.

To the eyes of the Aussie/Caucasian, YOU ARE CHINESE (or just another chinaman).  

See, for some reason you all think this is some kind of a trump card "to an Aussie you're a Chinaman - Bang! KO!" I've actually had that discussion before with a Chinaman, and those are almost the exact words he used, and that's something that irks me: why are you so concerned about what other people think you are? Are you not already sure of your identity you have to rely on how others perceive you, because you have no clue who you are? So if a gwai lo thinks I'm a Chinaman, ergo, I'm a Chinaman, because gwai los are superior? I've said this before - "Who cares what others think if you know who you are?"

This whole thing came about because the OP came on to rant about his experiences with racists in NZ, and how the Kiwis think he's China, I'm merely telling him he has a choice. Hey it probably won't change the situation, but at least he knows he doesn't have to be associated with the group that he thinks have put him in his predicament in the first place. Are the Kiwis wrong for being racist? Absolutely. But does that mean he needs to play their game accept what they think? That's what I'm telling him.

huit, you urgently need to see a shrink, you have an incurable condition of inferior complex, the only you can heal yourself is to go jump off the cliff.

So... what'll it be? Cliff or shrink? No point in doing both. Norman, mate, take a chill pill, make up your mind and try again.


Also, if you're going to throw big words around at least make the effort in finding out what they actually mean - an inferiority complex entails an innate sense of inferiority. In my case, I feel neither inferior nor superior. Rightly or wrongly, I don't like a group of people, I choose to dissociate with them, I've never had the feeling I've ever been a part of them nor do I feel obliged to be responsible for their actions. Does that sound clear enough?


Man if I knew you'd get worked up so easily I should have been nicer to you when I rejected you that time when you asked me out to drinks, but that's another story :P

huit

It seems like the discussion becomes a bit honkie centric. Please think about the other chinese, CBC, ABC, Maylaisan born chinese, singaporian.... Disregarding the nationality, and which country they  ...
popoeliz 發表於 2012-1-8 07:47 AM

Of course this discussion is Hongkie-centric, given that you were questioning ME about MY identity and who *I* choose to associate with. AND I happen to be Hongkie.

I thought I've already made it ABUNDANTLY clear that I acknowledge the fact that I AM ethnically Chinese, but it appears you and Norman have both blurred the line between an ethnic Chinese and a Chinese national by implying they are one and the same, and by extension, an ethnic Chinese from anywhere has no choice but to accept a mainlander as a brethren by default, because they share the same ethnicity, regardless of the environment they grew up in and local culture they have been exposed to (as you have rightly pointed out in your post) being vastly different. That would be irrational.

Yes, there are unique differences within each ethnic Chinese group, just as there are differences between ALL nationalities. If the cultural, mentality and behavioural gap is wide enough between you and a person from another country, you would choose whether to bridge the gap, or to keep your distance. I made my choice to keep my distance from Chinamen on sight (usually with a cringe or a grimace, especially when there's a bunch of them in a shop) - and am now living happily ever after, end of story.

Most of what I just said here, I've already said before. Please digest my last posts thoroughly before making me repeat myself.

huit

Some more food for thought, my Taiwanese mates, all of them 本省人, will have a serious problem with you if you called them 中國人, but they're happy to be called 華裔

Two separate identities. Don't confuse them.

huit

popoeliz:

I think the key point is if you are ethnically Chinese, you are Chinese. No but, no if or may be...
Similarly a statement like "anyone that is not from communist china is not a Chinese" is just as absurd.

So are you saying there should be no distinction between ethnicity and nationality, regardless of an individual's personal experience, s/he is require carry any burden and stigma s/he did not create, and therefore what shapes a person's outlook in life the most is not as important as expectations set for him/her by others.

By the same token, are you suggesting that Jane Goldstein of Neutral Bay, 35, fourth-generation Jewish-Australian, athiest, chartered accountant and mother of 2, should feel the same way about Israel's occupation of Palestine, as Moshe Herschlag of Tel Aviv, Israeli Orthodox Jew, 35, engineer and father of 3? Nevermind the circumstances they grew up in, culture they were exposed to, creed, gender, occupation, all because a fundamentalist Islamic terrorist would see them as the same and kill them both, as they are both Jews by the broadest of terms? You tell me what's more absurd.

Or, if a black man from Tennessee is able to trace his ancestry back to modern-day Congo, would he suddenly refer to himself as Congolese-American? Can he be accused of "denying" his heritage all of a sudden? And yet, assimilated into the wider society as they are, do African-Americans not have their own culture evolved from their ancestors, that is very distinct from other ethnicities?

The fact of the matter is, culture is not static as the baggage you have made it out to be, it is constantly changed by the environment a group finds itself in. I've acknowledged time and time again that my heritage IS Chinese, I have never given that up, but you conveniently chose to ignore that, and continued to put me in the same pigeonhole as those that grew up in a drastically different society with vastly different values, with no clear or logical explanation other than saying what amounts to "you just ARE, so shut up" ad nauseum.

BTW 華裔 simply means "of Chinese descendance" regardless of where one is born.

A politician may say not keeping political promise is political astuteness, to me it is a lie.
e.g. The Australian Labour prime minister promised that there is no carbon tax before the election but she set up carbon tax after the election to secure a minority government with Green party.
To her it is political astuteness, to me she is a bloody liar, no if no but no may be.

Gillard blatantly, irrefutably and without any possibility of doubt LIED - there are soundbites, video clips of her making that promise on carbon tax, it was part of her re-election policies written in black and white, and in less than a year, she very openly backflipped. You are correct to call her a liar.
As for me, I don't remember making any pledge, to anybody, at any time of my life, to accept all people of my ethnicity as fraternity, and chose my associations according to my beliefs. So quite simply put, I just didn't live up to YOUR expectations, which frankly I don't give a toss about. Surely you can see the difference?

Now, GPSNYC:

I think he got what he deserves, this is what happens when you think you're something that you never were and never will.

Thank you. That pretty much sums up who the pathetic moron is. Well done, you've saved me a lot of time.

The fact that you willingly took the tragic story of someone who in his own words "wanted to live for myself not others" and blamed the victim for his death at the hands of eight unsophisticated, uneducated thugs in an environment that promotes machismo and bullying, just shows how desperate you were in twisting the facts just to make a point. Anybody who is seen to be an easy target is just as likely to fall victim to bullying whether s/he be Asian or Hispanic, or gay, or physically different and weaker than the rest. If Danny Chen were to blame in any way, it would be his naivete of human cruelty and mob mentality in the military environment, but NOT his sense of identity, given that America was all he knew.

But to shift the blame from the perpetrators of a crime to the victim is truly idiotic, akin to suggesting you deserve to be robbed because you carry money.

And you took one example from the thousands of ethnic-minority American soldiers still serving in Afghanistan and portrayed that as the norm. So, should the US Military be segregated again, or better still, just be white only, since in your book nobody else is American? The other ethnics like yourself can just sit back and enjoy the show because you're not American, you're just there to take what the American society can offer, but your allegiance is still steadfastly with China, simply because you are an ethnic Chinese. Nevermind nobody knows you there.

Essentially you are saying "you are not who you know and believe you are, but rather what others think you are, because they are (i) bigger and more powerful than you, and/or (ii)there's more of them" - that sort of mentality is typically China.

Taiwan is part of China and you know that's true. Look back in History and no one ever admit Taiwan as a country. and let's not forget what a big f-king sellouts back in days which the 國民黨 who just kept borrowing money from AMERICA to try to fuxk around in China the whole freaking time. Oh yeah.

So you want to talk about history?

When the KMT was founded, Taiwan had already been a Japanese colony for more than twenty years. The KMT had sweet fk-all to do with Taiwan until the Commies forced them there in '49, so what has the corruption of the KMT, DURING the period when it ruled China, got to do with ANYTHING? Not following your logic there mate, if there's any.

Taiwan was run as a hardline dictatorship by the KMT until well into the 80s and there had been constant resentment from the public, especially the native Taiwanese, with violent clashes and bloody massacres along the way. So the KMT did not represent the views of the Taiwanese people. If anything, Chiang Kai-shek harboured hopes of reclaiming mainland China, so KMT had always been pro-unification (and evidently, its policies today as a democratically elected government still leans towards appeasing the PRC), so, again, what's your point in bringing up the KMT? Because that's all you know?

Taiwan is not recognised as a country due to diplomatic pressure applied by China since Taiwan's expulsion from the UN in the early 70s, which, again, amounts to bullying as mentioned above. But in all practical sense it is its own country - what is more important: who are YOU to decide the fate of 20 million people given you don't even belong there, it should be up to its citizens whether it wants unification or independence. South Sudan didn't exist as a country this time last year, East Timor wasn't a country 10 years ago, just because a state wasn't an independent nation it should never be one no matter what its people believe? If we were to follow your logic then I guess the Turks should seek to regain sovereignty over the Balkan nations seeing as they were part of the Ottoman Empire about 100 years ago, that's not even as long as as when China lost Taiwan.




What is remarkable is that, despite living in the West, you're all still displaying the a lack of rationality when dealing with subjects that warrant them the most - sovereignty, ethnicity and identity, and opt instead to shout from the top of your lungs "this is absurd/pathetic", "you are a moron" and "that's just how it is" with little logical input. Ironically, these are the traits I associate the most with those I regard as the quintessential "Chinaman"